tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5043107720628785237.post5395898773276725650..comments2023-11-29T16:14:57.804-06:00Comments on Both Saint and Cynic: How Do You Solve A Problem Like Junia? Pt. 5Brant Clementshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16593149504013469895noreply@blogger.comBlogger9125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5043107720628785237.post-46117149466960887342012-02-23T08:35:13.648-06:002012-02-23T08:35:13.648-06:00Hi Victoria,
I am aware of blueletterbible. It...Hi Victoria,<br /><br />I am aware of blueletterbible. It's a great resource, though it doesn't have the friendliest interface. <br /><br />I checked with a friend who teaches college-level Latin. He assures me that Iuniam is both feminine in gender and a woman's name. He says,"There is no example of the Iunii...using a feminine version of the family name for a male -- Iunia is definitely a female." <br /><br />I'm sure you know that there is also a female deacon in Romans 16 (Phoebe in 16:1). She has fared almost as badly as Junia at the hands of interpreters, though she hasn't often been made male.Brant Clementshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16593149504013469895noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5043107720628785237.post-35087520606753274432012-02-22T21:31:19.669-06:002012-02-22T21:31:19.669-06:00Thanks for your more lengthy reply, Brant! and for...Thanks for your more lengthy reply, Brant! and for adding me to your lists.<br /><br />Do you know about blueletterbible.com? They have a selection of English translations, but also the Septuagint and Vulgate (and for the OT, the Westminster Leningrad Codex). The Vulgate for that verse is<br /><em><br />salutate Andronicum et Iuniam cognatos et concaptivos meos qui sunt nobiles in apostolis qui et ante me fuerunt in Christo<br /></em><br /><br />but my Latin's too rusty to discern the gender of Iuniam.<br /><br />To your point on the RC church being willing to acknowledge Junia as a woman apostle but not willing to ordain women: it's an interesting mixture of concepts. The stricture against ordaining women rests primarily on the argument "Jesus didn't choose any women among the Twelve". Bishops are seen as the heirs to the Twelve, priests and deacons as sharing in their ministry, more or less by delegation. <br /><br />But there's a bit of a muddle in our sacramental theology of ordination. Vatican II clarified that there is one sacrament of ordination, given in three degrees: thus a priest who is raised to bishop is ordained again, using a different rite, in which he is said to receive the fullness of the sacrament. Likewise a priest is normally ordained a deacon on the way to ordination to the priesthood; and we have permanent deacons who are ordained. Different rites, but all the same sacrament.<br /><br />And yet, it is a historical fact that women were ordained deacons, as late as the 8th century.<br /><br />Of course the argument goes "well they weren't really deacons, they were just..." protecting the modesty of the women being baptized, or whatnot. But there's no reason to think that, except if you are already convinced that women can't be deacons.<br /><br />Anyway, I think there's some interesting work to be done in this area in the coming years - please keep us in your prayers!Victoria Gailehttp://gaudetetheology.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5043107720628785237.post-59639991394145513062012-02-21T14:44:49.343-06:002012-02-21T14:44:49.343-06:00Victoria:
I put my quick reply to your post up la...Victoria:<br /><br />I put my quick reply to your post up last night, knowing that it was not nearly enough, but all that I had time for just then.<br /><br />I truly appreciate your kind words, and in particular the information from the NAB and NABRE. I thought I had an NAB around here, but the only Catholic Bible I can find is a Confraternity New Testament, which was a translation of Jerome's Latin Vulgate. It, by the way, gives the name in Romans 16:7 as Junias, without footnotes. As I understand it, Jerome rendered the name into Latin as feminine.<br /><br />At any rate, I like the forthright way the NAB and NABRE have dealt with Junia. It is interesting to me that the Roman Catholic Church, which does not ordain women, doesn't have a problem with Junia being an Apostle. Of course, an apostle is not necessarily (perhaps not at all) the same as a priest and the witness of tradition is of greater importance in the RCC than in the Protestant denominations. <br /><br />I've had a chance to look at your blog, and will be adding it to my feed reader and my blog roll.<br /><br />Thanks again, and may God bless you in this Lenten season.<br /><br />BrantBrant Clementshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16593149504013469895noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5043107720628785237.post-71463124935125575512012-02-20T21:44:00.082-06:002012-02-20T21:44:00.082-06:00Thank you!Thank you!Brant Clementshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16593149504013469895noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5043107720628785237.post-55243386170965923762012-02-20T21:35:47.888-06:002012-02-20T21:35:47.888-06:00Hi, I just found this series of articles on Junia ...Hi, I just found this series of articles on Junia & am quite enjoying it. But this post particularly is bookmark-worthy because of your interesting descriptions of all these translations.<br /><br />I'll add another two to your list, if I may: the New American Bible (NAB), and its recently revised edition (NABRE). These are Roman Catholic scholarly translations, and our lectionary readings are now taken from the NABRE.<br /><br />From the <a href="http://old.usccb.org/nab/bible/prefaceold.htm" rel="nofollow">preface of the NAB</a>: <br /><br />The New American Bible . . . is the achievement of some fifty biblical scholars, the greater number of whom, though not all, are Catholics. In particular, the editors-in-chief have devoted twenty-five years to this work. The collaboration of scholars who are not Catholic fulfills the directive of the Second Vatican Council, not only that "correct translations be made into different languages especially from the original texts of the sacred books," but that, "with the approval of the church authority, these translations be produced in cooperation with separated brothers" so that "all Christians may be able to use them."<br /><br />From the <a href="http://usccb.org/bible/index.cfm" rel="nofollow">USCCB website containing the NABRE</a>: "Released on March 9, 2011, the New American Bible, Revised Edition (NABRE) is the culmination of nearly 20 years of work by a group of nearly 100 scholars and theologians, including bishops, revisers and editors. The NABRE includes a newly revised translation of the entire Old Testament (including the Book of Psalms) along with the 1986 edition of the New Testament."<br /><br />Both the <a href="http://old.usccb.org/nab/bible/romans/romans16.htm" rel="nofollow">NAB</a> and the <a href="http://www.usccb.org/bible/romans/16" rel="nofollow">NABRE</a> translate it the same way, with the same footnote:<br /><br /> Greet Andronicus and Junia,* my relatives and my fellow prisoners; they are prominent among the apostles and they were in Christ before me. <br /><br />The footnote reads "The name Junia is a woman’s name. One ancient Greek manuscript and a number of ancient versions read the name “Julia.” Most editors have interpreted it as a man’s name, Junias."Victoria Gailehttp://gaudetetheology.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5043107720628785237.post-54352544930140324032012-01-28T14:02:14.357-06:002012-01-28T14:02:14.357-06:00Thanks, Brant! A discussion of translations would ...Thanks, Brant! A discussion of translations would be interesting!StoryGuyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09111140726689379002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5043107720628785237.post-74197909876073745152012-01-27T12:31:00.929-06:002012-01-27T12:31:00.929-06:00Thanks, StoryGuy for the info from the New Jerusal...Thanks, StoryGuy for the info from the New Jerusalem Bible. It apparently treats Junia as a man. Considering its age (1985) that's not surprising.<br /><br />The Greek word behind "kinsmen" is a plural masculine adjective. As is the case in many languages, Greek substantives have a grammatical gender which does not always reflect the physical sex of their referent. In other words, the Greek behind "kinsmen" is masculine but doesn't necessarily refer to males. Or, to answer your question directly: Yes, it is inclusive.<br /><br />When I teach my Diakonia New Testament class, I always spend some time talking about the differences among translations. Maybe I'll get a blog post up on the subject when I finish with Junia. I think there will be one more post about Junia. <br /><br />I've written to the publisher of the Common English Bible to see if they mailed out your copy. I got a reply saying they're looking into it. When I know more, I'll post it here.<br /><br />God bless.Brant Clementshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16593149504013469895noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5043107720628785237.post-78130243984330930952012-01-27T09:21:19.603-06:002012-01-27T09:21:19.603-06:00The translation in the New Jerusalem Bible is inte...The translation in the New Jerusalem Bible is interesting... "Greetings to those outstanding apostles, Andronicus and Junius, my kinsmen and fellow-prisoners, who were in Christ before me." What is the Greek for what they have translated as "kinsmen"? Is it inclusive?StoryGuyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09111140726689379002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5043107720628785237.post-59147371421893536152012-01-27T09:08:46.949-06:002012-01-27T09:08:46.949-06:00Good morning, Brant!
Thank you!!! I have often wo...Good morning, Brant!<br /><br />Thank you!!! I have often wondered what the differences were between all the translations (and find the whole thing fascinating) - your thumbnail summaries are REALLY helpful!!! I think I will copy and paste them into a quick reference guide for myself!<br /><br />Just as a note, I am still anxiously waiting for my new Bible!<br /><br />May the Lord BLESS you today with His LIGHT and JOY!StoryGuyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09111140726689379002noreply@blogger.com