tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5043107720628785237.post5807455904635002358..comments2023-11-29T16:14:57.804-06:00Comments on Both Saint and Cynic: How Do You Solve A Problem Like Junia? Pt. 1Brant Clementshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16593149504013469895noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5043107720628785237.post-54528778352597226172012-01-09T15:20:17.769-06:002012-01-09T15:20:17.769-06:00No problem!No problem!Brant Clementshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16593149504013469895noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5043107720628785237.post-50374411773118972852012-01-09T14:06:57.207-06:002012-01-09T14:06:57.207-06:00Whoops, and I apologize for the typo above with yo...Whoops, and I apologize for the typo above with your last name . . .Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5043107720628785237.post-88268671284371206022012-01-08T14:35:20.810-06:002012-01-08T14:35:20.810-06:00Brant Clemens,
Gettysburg!
-- seminarianBrant Clemens,<br /><br />Gettysburg!<br /><br />-- seminarianAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5043107720628785237.post-72332354930896434042012-01-07T12:27:56.442-06:002012-01-07T12:27:56.442-06:00Husker:
People see things through conceptual fram...Husker:<br /><br />People see things through conceptual frames. The people whom you refer to have a frame that says: the Bible is inerrant; Women are not suited for leadership in the Church. <br /><br />Obviously, you and I have a different frame.<br /><br />The thing about our frames is that they can be changed, but they don't change easily. We can, to a point, simply ignore information that doesn't fit in our frames. Logic and reasoned arguments don't work to change our frames. Counter-arguments can *always* be mustered, and as long as they confirm our point of view, they don't have to be logically sound, or even based in fact.<br /><br />Frames change when congnitive dissonance--the disjuncture between reality and our beliefs--becomes too uncomfortable to maintain.<br /><br />So, I don't believe that what I say on this blog will change anyone's mind about Junia, or about women's roles in Church. It may add to someone's cognitive dissonance. Or it may simply lead someone to say "That Brant is full of it" and trench in a little deeper.<br /><br />Keeping all of that in mind, I think the argument that "apostles are only sent but disciples are called" is a bit strange. For one thing, the word "apostle" does mean "one who is sent" like an ambassador, but "disciple" does not mean "one who is called." A disciple is a student. That Jesus had at least one female student/disciple is clear from Luke 10 where he not only allowed but encouraged Mary of Bethany to sit at his feet and listen to him.<br /><br />We have call stories for some of the 12 disciples, but not all of them. In Mark 3, Jesus "calls" the disciples to himself and then sends them out as "apostles." The disciples, in other words, became the apostles. Paul had to defend his right to the title "apostle" (see Galatians 1-2) precisely because he had not been a disciple. <br /><br />In other words, the office of apostle seems to be something more than mere student/discipleship. Was Paul, the Apostle, not a leader of the Church? <br /><br />Ah well, as I said, none of this will be convincing to someone with the "inerrant Bible, no woman leaders" frame. But, women were, apparently, both disciples of Jesus and Apostles in Paul's churches.<br /><br />Like StoryGuy, I'm glad there are women in the church.Brant Clementshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16593149504013469895noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5043107720628785237.post-21476361141755038212012-01-07T12:00:45.568-06:002012-01-07T12:00:45.568-06:00Anonymous:
May I ask which sem?Anonymous:<br /><br />May I ask which sem?Brant Clementshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16593149504013469895noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5043107720628785237.post-25153884475288509952012-01-07T12:00:25.041-06:002012-01-07T12:00:25.041-06:00StoryGuy:
Here are a couple of links that you (or...StoryGuy:<br /><br />Here are a couple of links that you (or anyone else interested in the question of inerrancey) might like to look at:<br /><br />http://www.patheos.com/blogs/peterenns/2012/01/evolution-evangelicals-and-their-bible-or-dealing-with-how-god-rolls/<br /><br />Among other things, Enns likens the Bible's revelation of God to the incarnation.<br /><br />And:<br /><br />http://rachelheldevans.com/bible-series<br /><br />Rachel Held Evans resolves to take a clear eyed look at Scripture.Brant Clementshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16593149504013469895noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5043107720628785237.post-82716510377274309652012-01-07T03:44:43.372-06:002012-01-07T03:44:43.372-06:00Me again!
Just wanted to say that Husker makes an...Me again!<br /><br />Just wanted to say that Husker makes an interesting observation!<br /><br />...and that the answer to it all is not to depend on our own powers to sort out the truth, but to learn to draw closer and closer to Jesus, and let HIS Spirit reveal it to us. It isn't so much for us to "figure out" as maybe it is to just to truly learn to listen.<br /><br />I mean, even if there really isn't a God, you could pick up a Bible and spend years studying it and come up with your definitive judgments on what it teaches.<br /><br />But, it seems to me, if God really IS there, He would want us to KNOW His ways. So do we try to figure them out ourselves, or do we learn to listen to Him, learn to be led by His Spirit?<br /><br />The question is, Is God really there? Or not?<br /><br />Seems to me, that if He IS, He would want us to KNOW He is... and He would reveal Himself to us... but it will always be in the messy, imperfect way we do things down here!StoryGuyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09111140726689379002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5043107720628785237.post-34414518037334595182012-01-07T03:30:24.142-06:002012-01-07T03:30:24.142-06:00Now, there you go, stirring the pot again!!! Takin...Now, there you go, stirring the pot again!!! Taking on women's role in the church AND inerrancy??!!! <br /><br />Hmmmm... I guess I doubt either issue can ever really be "solved." There will always be a difference of opinion until that one day when God will be able to hit us up the backside of the head and say, "See! NOW do you get it?!"<br /><br />So for me, I can say there IS a Truth - God knows what it is - and we do our best to come to know it - but we will never know it perfectly.<br /><br />So at least that takes away the inerrancy idea of jamming a finger at a verse and saying, "See! The Bible says so right there!" and proclaiming the end of the discussion! I always find myself thinking, "Well, maybe... maybe not."<br /><br />But clearly God has given us the privilege of sharing in His work here on earth, and while God is perfectly inerrant - we are not!<br /><br />It also seems to me the whole inerrancy question is a bit pointless anyway since we don't have any of the original documents, but thousands of copies! "Which ONE is inerrant???" Not too mention the whole "Lost in translation" thing!<br /><br />As far as women in the church... I am glad they are there!StoryGuyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09111140726689379002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5043107720628785237.post-40031243507425867732012-01-05T06:28:54.684-06:002012-01-05T06:28:54.684-06:00Looking forward to this series!
-- ELCA seminaria...Looking forward to this series!<br /><br />-- ELCA seminarian, of the female persuasionAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5043107720628785237.post-63873208356101206782012-01-05T01:19:52.086-06:002012-01-05T01:19:52.086-06:00I completely agree with you, but as a woman pastor...I completely agree with you, but as a woman pastor, the arguement that always comes with both Juania and the women at the tomb, is the very fact that they are called Apostles. Apostles are the sent ones. Disciples are the called ones, and hence the ones to lead the church. Therefore it isn't a problem in the mind of the inerrantist. What do you do with that?The Huskernoreply@blogger.com